WORKPLACE MENTAL HEALTH: Part 2 – Groundbreaking Union & Business Solutions

Quentin Steen, Trever Amendt Interview Transcript

You can download a pdf of the transcript here. The entire transcript is also found below:

INTRO  0:10

Welcome to the HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Podcast. Join our host Jo de Vries with the Fresh Outlook Foundation as she combines science with storytelling to explore a variety of mental health issues with people from all walks of life. Stay tuned!

JO  0:32

Hey, Jo here. Welcome to part two of our podcast on workplace mental health, where we'll build on what we learned in Part 1 about trailblazing research and regulatory approaches. This time around, we'll explore groundbreaking union and business solutions thanks to our co sponsors WorkSafe BC, CLAC, and AECOM.

You'll meet Quentin Steen, Labor Relations Representative at CLAC, a Canadian labor union, and Trevor Amendt, Site Safety Lead for AECOM, Energy Operations & Maintenance at the Joffre chemical plant in Lacombe, Alberta. First, let's meet Quentin from CLAC, which represents more than 60,000 workers in almost every sector of the Canadian economy. Based on values of respect, dignity, and fairness, CLAC aims to build better lives, better workplaces, and better communities. The union also helps members reach their full potential by finding their own versions of everyday greatness. Hi, Quentin... thanks for joining us.

QUENTIN  1:41

Thank you so much for the invite. It's my pleasure, Jo.

JO  1:45

Can you give us an overview of CLAC's approach to mental wellness, and how that differs from that of other labor unions? 

QUENTIN  1:56

I'm sure most of the unions out there are tracking some of the similar directions, but CLAC has been a labor union who's pretty proud of their progressive labor relations model, like a collaborative approach between the employer, employee, and the union. It's built on cooperative versus confrontational encounters... we've always believed that it's the most effective model when dealing with workplace issues. And among some of these issues, for sure, is the physical and mental safety and well-being of workers in the workplace.

And it all sort of started with us in terms of the weight of this, about three-and-a-half or four years ago. It became a national mandate for the mental health of our CLAC staff and our shop stewards, where we made a huge investment into it. So, this mandate included things like working with our signatory companies in their management to address mental health safety of their employees at the workplace. In CLAC, we have a My Health & Wellness department where you can go to our CLAC website where our members can get the knowledge and tools they need to take charge of their own health and well-being by adopting good habits and a healthy lifestyle, and they can live a better and perhaps a longer life.

This site is very interactive, and it's got like several health and wellness tools... like mental health is a specific area. Substance-use case managers are part of that, to financial wellness, workplace wellness. We also have EFAP programs like a lot of companies do, where we have an Employment and Family Assistance Program... that's what it stands for... where we have resources that are available to our members and their families to reach out for free. And they receive confidential help. If they or their loved ones are struggling, then we encourage them not to hesitate on that.

We also have a quarterly magazine called The Guide that includes mental health articles and resources for our members and is really ramped up since the pandemic outbreak. Those are sort of our approach the some of the things that are kind of in our toolboxes that we provide for our members and how our organization looks at it. We're very aggressive with it. We think it's really important. We easily put it on par with the physical safety and wellness and well-being of employees at the workplace. Absolutely, one hundred percent.

JO  4:14

Quentin... you’re a labour relations representative with CLAC. Tell us about the mental health-related work you do specifically.

QUENTIN  4:23

I've had a recent change in my role from not just rep but where I do that 50% of my role, but also the other 50% is member education coordinator for BC. Part of my role as the coordinator, and has actually been as a rep for the last three years, is providing Mental Health First Aid courses to our signatory companies, to our staff, and to our stewards. And I've done I think, in the last few years about 23 or 24 in total, and these Mental Health First Aid courses are designed by the Mental Health Commission of Canada, and basic courses are about 12 hours. So over two days, generally speaking, and then a blended virtual course that came online as of the pandemic, that's about eight hours. And I deliver these courses throughout BC and Alberta.

Part of my role, too, in the last year-and-a-half has been creating Mental Health Moments. And that started of course with the onset of the pandemic, when I was tasked to write Mental Health Moments that were published on a weekly basis to our membership and staff about 60,000 people plus, and now they're published monthly. And they hit a variety of different subjects. The reason I started writing them is because I realized at the beginning of the pandemic, that once the virus comes and goes, or it's no longer on our minds because we've had these vaccinations, and herd [immunity], really what we're left with is really going to be the damage that's caused to our mental health. And so, I started seeing it in our representatives and I asked our national office if I could begin to write some articles for our reps, and they took that and decided it needs to be published to the rest of our membership. And we've gotten a lot of responses from a lot of people sharing their stories. And so that's been very, very great part of my journey in this last year-and-a-half in my role.

JO  6:14

And I think in this difficult time, people are just craving that kind of information.

QUENTIN  6:20

Oh, absolutely. The reality is, what I've seen anyways, from my perspective, the pandemic did a few things. And I would kind of categorize that impact on three different types of or kinds of experiences out there. The first being someone who has never had mental health-related issues, and they might be anxious, and they might worry from time to time, but never a diagnosable thing. And then all of a sudden, three weeks, four weeks, four months into it, they're now sitting across from a therapist or an EFAP program, and they're talking about an anxiety disorder.

And then there's other people that have had them lying in the weeds, like myself for years, but I just kept myself busy, or didn't pay attention to it, or sort of deflected it, or pretended it wasn’t there. And with the pandemic, I mean, it just bubbled to the surface for so many people. And then the third category of people, like where I'm at right now, where I have two diagnosable mental illnesses that I've lived with for most of my life. They've just been amplified... I've had to really dig down and really learn how to manage them in the middle of this pandemic, much differently than maybe prior to the pandemic. It is affecting people.

JO  7:32

Thank you for being so vulnerable about that. Can you share your story?

QUENTIN  7:37

Absolutely love to. I'm 51 years old. And my personal journey with mental health issues goes way, way back. I just didn't realize how far back the rabbit hole really went. But like I said, one of my diagnosable illnesses is clinical depression. I had it from early childhood into adulthood. It was seasonal at first... September was the start of new school year or work year, or January... the start rebooting of that. So, it would come like that, and it was kind of like this cloud that would come over me.

And then it started to develop in a year-round in about 2008. It was nonstop, and some weeks were worse than others. Some of the darkest times I battled with suicidal ideations. In fact, those go back to grade four, where I first tried to take my life by suicide. And fortunately, I'm still here. In 2012 it got really bad for me, and those ideations came back again, and I had to pull over to the side of road, while I was traveling between two different cities, and call for help.

I didn't realize that I had a clinical depression, until actually I took our Mental Health First Aid course, about five years ago, or four years ago. The irony of this all is I'm married to a former therapist, and three of my friends out of the top four are therapists. And so, they've known this for a long, long time. But like they said to me, you know, you weren't ready to hear it. And so when you're not ready to hear you just shut everything down. So that was kind of ironic the way it came about.

I also have an anxiety disorder that I believe just comes from my being an infant... I was adopted... and at an early age I spent my first number of months going between wet nurse to wet nurse. And one particular time I was dropped on my head on the cement sidewalk, and that just changed my brain, physiologically, from that day forward. I didn't know that was an issue, until like I said, about 15 years ago when I was in therapy, and it was brought up as something that that's actually a big impact.

And then into early childhood, my attachment issues that come from the adoption, like abandonment, emotional depravations, where the need to feel loved, significant, valued, like us all. But that just added to the anxiety part of it.

In the early school years, I was bullied horribly physically because I was adopted. We're from a low-end family, and I was really the runt of the school. And emotionally, for sure, the bullying continued where, you know, I was always picked last or assigned to a group, which is even worse, because no one would pick you.

And then it increased into high school where I was routinely held down by a group of guys that were popular, and jocks, and in woodwork shop, for at least by Grade 10 year anyways, and pinned to a table at some point during the class and they poured linseed oil down my throat until I threw up. Then I was sent to the principal's office because I was the troublemaker.

And then it just continued on like that throughout high school and I even had a cancer scare. And so, I developed a phobia of death, which added to my anxiety. And then to my adult years was just even harder, in the sense that I made these vows that I would never, ever get rejected or bullied again, which, if you look at life, those are ridiculous, right? Because it happens every time we turn around. But those vows actually turned into my curses, and my default setting... my racket as a human being, I like to call it... is to get big, loud, critical, and overwhelm people.

You know, in the midst of that, I developed panic attacks, too. And they started back in 1999. And I occasionally still have them. Last one happened to me was in Costco. And all that to say, though those are my issues, I've learned how to manage them much more effectively now that I know what they are, and how I function inside of them, and how I function with them.

I've had a lot of therapy in the last number of years, Cognitive Behavior Therapy, to look at my attachment issues, my anxiety and panic attacks, and ways to deal with that neurofeedback, which is a recalibrating of your brain, Alpha-Stim, which was a big step in adding to my Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I've taken a lot of education and emotional intelligence in why I do the things I do. And then type theory, understanding my personality type. There's been this very robust sort of knowledge that I've gained once I understood what was in front of me.

That's kind of my story. I don't think they'll ever go away... I don't expect them to. But that's not the issue. For me, the issue is, how do I function with them? They're part of my life, and they are who they are, and I am who I am. So, how do I learn how to manage them? That really is the issue, not hoping and wishing they would go away, because that's probably not going to help.

JO  12:37

Thank you so much for sharing so many very personal experiences. Quentin. One of the things I'm learning through this podcast is just how resilient people can be. And those stories of resilience, and your particular story of resilience, are not only so informative, but inspiring. And people like yourself, they tend to take what they've learned about themselves, and then move that into an area where they can help other people who have similar challenges. I'd like to know, how has your personal experience helped you better understand and serve CLAC members who are struggling?

QUENTIN  13:24

That's a great question. Well, let me start with this. One in five Canadians live with a mental health issue... and that figure only actually includes people seeking treatment. And you know what Joanne, I would say the last three years in my classes, it's more like one in three… it's not one in five, I think it's more like one in three. But that's just from what I've seen. And almost 50% of people will develop a mental health illness in their lifetime. Psychological health problems and the illnesses are the number one cause of disability in Canada, according to the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety in 2016 survey. The Mental Health Commission of Canada, as well as the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety, report that one in five workers experience fatigue, sleeping problems, headaches, and anxiety, and 23% of workers experienced physical health problems caused by stress, anxiety, or major depression, and 20% of all sick leaves are related to mental health. So, nationally, in Canada, an estimated 35 million workdays are lost to mental health conditions amongst our 10 million plus workers. That's astonishing. So, it's not fake. It's real.

JO  14:34

Well, not only that, but also the impact on our economy. They say that the impacts of mental health on our economy are at least $55 billion a year. And by the year 2030, or 40, I believe, they expect it to be more than $300 billion a year.

QUENTIN  14:55

Yeah... so it's not going away. So, because it's not going away, then my next thing is… it’s about promotion. And what I like to say in my discourse with people, whether it's the workplace or wherever else... and what I actually alluded to earlier.... that it's entirely possible to be diagnosed with a serious illness or disorder, and then learn to live with your life, coping well with it and have a positive mental health about it. So, my mental health issues, like I said, might never go away, but it's how I learn to manage them that can make all the difference in terms of a person's resilience.

JO  15:26

How has your personal experience helped you serve your members better?

QUENTIN  15:32

I just teach them what I know. The reality is that it's a part of my personal mission in life to educate others of the prominence and importance of addressing mental health issues, not just in our society, but in our workplaces... in providing them with the skills and tools necessary in the way that I can, because I got to stay in my lane. I'm not a professional therapist, or a doctor, but I have a lane. And my lane is to be able to help our workers in our workplaces recognize the changes, or possible signs, of the decline of mental health, well-being in their selves first, and then maybe others around them. And then to assist those who might be in a mental health crisis by offering the proper comfort and support. And that's a key. And then probably one of the biggest things outside of that... and connected to this, and sort of the driver of it... is helping reduce the stigma that surrounds mental health in our society and workplaces. And it's there, and it's big.

JO  16:29

Thanks, Quentin... we'll dig deeper into that a little later, but now let's bring Trevor from AECOM into the conversation. AECOM is an award-winning infrastructure consulting firm of planners, designers, engineers, consultants, and construction managers. Its Energy Operations & Maintenance Division provides best-in-class maintenance, turnarounds, construction, and fabrication services to North American oil, gas, and chemical industries. Hello, Trevor, and thanks so much for being here.

TREVER  17:04

Thanks a lot, Jo. I'm very excited to be part of this conversation with you and with Quentin. Just a side note... Quentin has become probably one of my biggest mentors in the last year-and-a-half. His attitude towards mental health and the way he opens up people is just huge for me. So, thanks again.

JO  17:20

You are a site safety lead for AECOM, which is an international engineering firm... which I mentioned earlier. Can you tell us a little bit about your work? 

TREVER  17:32

I'm a safety professional here at Joffre NOVA Chemicals. We're about half-an-hour from Lacombe, [Alberta]. We deal with a lot of different trades out here... we've got pipe fitters, iron workers, electricians. And then we have a couple of CLAC groups with our insulators and scaffolders. We have a multiple trade group that does a lot of projects on site, deals with a lot of different, stressful environments... a lot of stuff that can go wrong, day to day.

People is a key to our industry. Having people fit for duty, making sure that they're healthy, when it comes to the physical and mental state of their body and their mind, is so important to us. It's really changed I think, too, in the last couple of years of how we support people. We look at them in a different way. And I really put a lot of the onus onto the Mental Health First Aid course that we started two years ago that really changed the way we look at [being] fit for duty.

JO  18:22

I understand that AECOM is zealous in its approach to optimizing mental health for its 47,000 workers around the world. What does that look like from your perspective, as the site safety lead in Lacombe?

TREVER  18:39

Whatever safety I can give to somebody... when it's procedures, policies, site safety rules... if they're not fit for duty, and they're not healthy to come in, we can achieve that. We just had a milestone last week Wednesday, we've done a full year without any incidents, no injuries, no first aids. And through a time of COVID, it's a huge announcement... it's exciting to have that happen on our site.

We've had so much diversity, so much isolation, where people come to work, go home, go to grocery store, go to the mall... there's not much left to do outside of that. We've really tried hard to make sure that people still feel that they're getting that support. Digging deeper… when you see someone who looks off, or just isn't firing on all cylinders, so to speak, that's such an important thing that we don't just push them off or put them in a corner.

I like to talk to individuals and find out how they're made inside, and what they like and dislike... how they're wired. Every individual is created in a special unique way, and that's the message I give in every orientation. So, of course the safety guy sits there and 90% of people think the safety guy is just going to pump safety and policies and procedures. But the first interaction I get with every worker... if it's a subcontractor or it's an AECOM person on site... is just that individuality of each person, so we understand that we build that relationship right from the ground level... so they feel that respect built right away, they feel that connection built right away. So, you start that relationship.

My safety director, Dale Hartery, he always talks about hand on shoulder... that's one of his favorite lines. That's something I really try to show to people when they come in, it’s very clear in our company to see that right from our VP, down to all our corporate, our site managers, and all our safety that work in the service industry. One of the biggest things we use is our human performance tools, that gives them the tools to see obvious things that can cause things to go better, to help them slow down. It gives them triggers to do what's right and not be rushing, not be causing something to cause an accident or an incident on site. We give them the tools that we put in front of them, the traps too, that could cause things to go wrong. So, we make it very clear, you know what, these are common things, stuff that cause problem, but it gives them that opportunity to see what's right.

And then of course, we have all the different organizations in our company, through HR, through Morneau Shepell, through the counseling groups, that we can help them to treat anything that's going on. It's not just the physical things that go wrong. It's more the internal, the mental stuff, the mental health issues that people have, that now we can put them into the right place to get that help and get treatment. And I like what Quentin said earlier, a lot of things that we deal with in life, if it's a mental health issue, they don't go away. We need to treat them and figure out a way to manage them. And I think AECOM is getting way better at managing this part of mental health and being able to deal with it.

JO  21:36

That's amazing. Trevor, you too have a personal story with mental health challenges. Can you share your story?

TREVER  21:43

AbsoluteIy. Mental health challenges, feel like it's part of who you are. It's part of your fiber of your being. And sometimes it's so embedded, you don't know what it is. I grew up on a mixed farm Saskatchewan, had seven siblings, and we all had a part to play on the farm. When I was about 11 years old, my brother Emile, who was 18, passed away from cystic fibrosis. He was born with this disease, and it goes after your digestive and you're breathing.

When he passed away, I had to grow up in a big hurry, and I was by no means ready for it at that time. And now I had to take over responsibility for the farm, I was the next person up to do the work and didn't really understand why. Wasn't a lot explained to me why I needed to step up. My dad wasn't very understanding with this specific issue and didn't have time for me to make mistakes along the way.

After about five years of trying to figure out where I belonged, I ended up quitting school and moving out... basically running away. We never talked about things at home when it came to how we were feeling or going through. Usually there was a lot of hollering with teaching... very physical aspects to life. There was no point to make mistakes, I guess. When you made mistakes that wasn't looked on as a learning experience.

When I can look back on things now, my mental health, my own issues were never dealt with. It was embedded so deep inside me that I never got a chance to talk to anybody about it, And I thought that was a dark part of my life that I didn't dare bring up. My opinion of mental health at that time was someone who was born with the physical disorder.

You talk about stigma! To me, mental health wasn't something that you could even have in everyday life. It wasn't something you could deal with. And, in my opinion, it couldn't be corrected or dealt with. This was a huge stigma. I went to drinking and smoking fairly heavy, and at 14 basically became an alcoholic. I didn't know how else to deal with what was going on inside, didn't feel like it was going good enough for my own family, and really struggled for the next seven to eight years with where I belonged and what I should be doing.

Feeling like I wasn't good enough really drove me to always try and be the best at anything I tried to accomplish, and not in a good way. I would go on to different jobs and different work jobs, and if I would learn a task, or a school, I would drive until I could be better than anybody on that site. Failure, when I did make a mistake, wasn't a learning experience. So, it basically crushed me. So went from getting into drinking and heavy smoking, into basically working every second of my life. I felt the more I could work, the better I would feel and wouldn't have to deal with those internal mental health embedded hurts and hang-ups which were just always there gnawing at me.

I had a son at the age of 19. We were both in the party scene and didn't want to grow up and take care of responsibility. We got married before the baby was born and I ended up working away, of course...  workaholic... work before anything else, and she got into an affair and left me basically a year after the baby was a year old.

After a couple of years of back and forth with our son trying to figure out where we could be in life... again, I was working like crazy because I thought that was the way to fix everything. I met a great young lady who had her life together. She was beautiful and really smart young lady who was going to college at the time, taking care of her two young boys. The moment we went on a blind date, set up by one of our cousins, I stopped smoking and drinking all the same night... so I got rid of something that was really causing a problem. This felt like the right thing to do. A year later we were married.

As soon as we started out, my mom started to dictate how we lived and especially picked on my new wife, Cindy... on how she was doing everything completely wrong. My old hurts and hang-ups kicked in, and I went straight back into a workaholic... the stress of life knocked me down again. And I hadn't figured out a way to deal with my own mental health, and didn't dare talk to Cindy about it because, again, this was something that I thought you didn't dare bring out... you didn't talk about. And the stigma to me was, this has no value, I've got to somehow bury that and move on.

Cindy and I now have been married for 24 years, and it's because of her love and patience and perseverance that have taken us this far. And I have to say very clearly, a year-and-a-half ago, when I went through this Mental Health {First Aid] course, there was so many things that opened my eyes to my own mental health issues that I dealt with. And Cindy and I... she's had an opportunity to see a part of me 23 years after we were married that she’d never seen before. The vulnerability that I've been able to bring to her has changed our marriage. And by no means is it 100%... there's still lots it has to be dealt with, but it's amazing.

And what I've gone through in my life, I turned 50 this year, so I'm not quite caught up to Quentin yet, but passion for mental health and people, who I rub shoulders with every day, so not just at work... works very important... but anywhere I go. So, through COVID a big thing I always tried to do if I was out shopping, I keep my eyes up and I try to get eye contact. And if you just say, "Hello, how's it going?" You could just feel that isolation and the hurts of people. We couldn't rub shoulders. We can't hug anymore. We can't shake hands. But man, whatever I could do to show people that you care, and the expressions and the excitement, sometimes in people's voice to get that interaction was just amazing.

JO  26:49

You both exemplify the power of vulnerability with the stories that you've shared. Quentin, first, when you're dealing with people in your union who are struggling with mental health challenges, do you share your story? And if so, how does that help those people?

QUENTIN  27:09

It's funny that you should say that because when I first started mental health courses, teaching them, I was with a very good friend and colleague at the time, Dave Phillips, who is a family therapist for 30 years. My wife actually worked underneath him in Abbotsford. I remember getting into the weeds of it the very first time and feeling very nervous, because the initial platform was to our entire staff. And I'm about to open my life up in front of my colleagues, which means... and again, attached to stigma... what are they going to think? Here's a guy who's like completely unstable, and should we actually think about promoting him? Or should keep an eye on him? Or maybe we should send someone to visit all these things that kind of going through my brain.

And so, the very first course I did, after we were debriefing, Dave just said to me, "Quentin, you got to jump in with both feet, man." I said, "Dave, you know my story, we're very good friends, and I'm not comfortable. What will people think?" He's like, "What have you got to lose? We're not just talking about you, we're talking about other people, and they can learn from your narrative."

Your narrative is nothing to run from. It's everything for you to embrace and walk into. I do that... I am not afraid of speaking my story. I'm not afraid of saying I have clinical depression...that I have anxiety disorders... that I get panic attacks every so often. And sometimes I feel like I'm losing my mind. Some days are better than others. Not every day is filled with rainbows and ponies. For me, it becomes very vital that the first sort of entry into mental health is me, at least telling my story when I'm given the opportunity to. And so, every class, I start with my story, and then I turn it over and say, "Why are you here?"

Jo, you would not believe the reaction that people have, once you step into that arena and say it's okay to tell me and to tell us, and for you to vocalize who you really are, and where you're really at. And it's amazing. There are people in there that in my 23 classes across the last number of years who have said to me, "I'm going to say something I've never said... I have bipolar." Or, "I live with schizophrenia." That's the first words out of their mouth.

I'm telling you right now, Jo, there was a time, and not too long ago, where that was never your entering comment. And so, at the workplace, do the same thing... exactly what Trevor does. I try to maintain eye contact, and I know I can feel it when something's off. I don't necessarily ask a lot of questions, but I do take the opportunity to talk about, "Man looks like you guys got a pretty difficult job here. That must be really wearing on the brain. I know what it would do for me." I think those type of things, just to recognize what they're experiencing and what they're feeling.

For me, it's an essential critical step. If you don't have that step, if I'm not sharing my story, my narrative... and my narrative doesn't have to work for everyone, it's not about everyone, it's about me.... but when I do that, it changes the environment. It lightens the air, and it allows people the permission to say, "You know what, things aren't really great... haven't been for a while. Here's what I'm dealing with."

JO  30:27

What it does is it really engages people emotionally. And that's where things really start to happen. A personal example of mine is, when I was initially fundraising for the HEADS UP program, I would talk to people about what the program was and what our objectives were, and what our plans were. But when I shared my story of chronic anxiety... and like you, I have an anxiety disorder... when I share that story, people would lean into me. I could see their body language change and their interest in what I was talking about, just increase exponentially. I agree that that vulnerability is so critical.

Trevor, how have you found the use of vulnerability to either help or hinder your work?

TREVER  31:23

So, first off, when I did this course with Quentin, and I've been in safety now for seven years, but we did this course a year-and-a-half ago, we sat down at the course, I'll be very honest, I was pretty nervous. I was a little stressed about where's this was going to go. I've never gone through that before. Like Quentin said, he tells a story right from the beginning. It's like it knocks your socks right off. And everybody in the room, their eyes are wide open, and they want to speak, it just opens the room.

He's not asking them to speak, he's not telling them to speak. People want to tell him their story and open up.  The vulnerability he gives to people… it's such a huge reaction. And I've been involved now with two of his courses, we did that one and three of us from our site went. And then we had a full course here on site with a very mixed group. And it's a true story. Like he says, it's real life. This is real, this isn't something made up. And people, just they want to tell their story.

I had so many texts and phone calls that da, ye did it here on site, they couldn't believe that this is actually something that was happening. It opened up such a new part to our site that we've never had before. And it's still there. After COVID, we've had trouble getting training back, but it's slowly coming again. But for me, on a daily basis, this year not as much because we're a lot slower. But in 2019, we had 200 people on site, and almost on a daily basis people would come down and sit in my office, and some would be in tears when they show up... some would be having stresses going on. They would say, "You know what... this is what's going on in my life... this is what's happening at home... this is what's happened to me... my wife isn't doing good... my wife got cancer... I had a family member pass away."

And they understand that because I've opened up with my story, what's going on in my life, that they can come to me and say, "Hey, this is what's going on." And they feel like I'm going to be able to either direct them, or just listen to what they have to say. And it completes them for that day. And either I give them the right that they should go home, or they should take a break. It's just that conversation. I don't tell them it's okay. But they have that feeling that now I've been able to open up. And it's part of a treatment that they feel good about, hey, somebody listened. I'm by no means a counselor. But that feeling they get when they leave, it is really good.

JO  33:35

They feel they're not alone. And I think that's huge. And particularly during the time of COVID when people are feeling so isolated, people are feeling lonely. That sharing of stories and emotions, and solutions, and all of that great stuff becomes an antidote for isolation and loneliness. And people just realize that they're not alone.

TREVER  34:04

I know when COVID hit last year, we had a quite a big group on site. And, of course, we had the COVID payments come from the government, and it was quite a disaster to start off. And I became an in-between person working with HR and payroll, trying to get these ROEs done and trying to get people paid. And some of them it took sometimes a month to almost a month-and-a-half to get there first cheque. And the stress that was caused by that was something we haven't seen for a long time because it happened so quick.

The government wasn't ready. And there was a lot of dotted I's and crossed T's that weren't done. So, it took a long time to get people the right help they needed, just financially. So, to be part of that really helped to build a lot more relationships and build a lot more respect for people to be part of that. Again, it had to do with financial, but sometimes they'd be on the phone for 45 minutes just talking to somebody, just taking the time to listen and see what I could to just support that person, and it built again relationships. To me, really, relationship is so important with any mental health issues people are having, because then they feel comfortable to be vulnerable. It's just such a big key.

QUENTIN  35:08

Not only that, but going, hey, you know what, no matter what the issue is, not only are there resources, but I can have a preferred future. I don't have to live under the weight of this. I can learn it is manageable. And for some disorders, some mental health issues are harder than others, you can live with them. And there's many examples out there of normal people living with significant issues, learning to manage them, and having good mental health, even though they have a significant mental health issue.

JO  35:40

That's just such a good point, Quentin. And I know that, Trevor, you mentioned earlier about how every one of us is unique. And that's why every one of us needs to have a very special management plan. And for me, that includes medication, getting good sleep, good nutrition, regular exercise, support from my family, and my friends. As this unfolds in front of you, you will learn what those management strategies are for yourself.

QUENTIN  35:56

And some work better for others. For me, I check all those boxes off too, Jo, maybe in different ways, but those are the boxes that I use as well. What's comforting is to know that there are resources, and that there is a way through these weeds, and that's a God send. When somebody in front of me not only feels comfortable telling me their story about issues they're dealing with, but also how they're dealing with it, that goes a long ways.

TREVER  36:43

I understand that there's treatment, I think when that's the key. When you bring on the course, yes, now they have a mental health issue that they've been dealing with their whole life, or it's just come to light, like you said. Now it's out there, but all of a sudden, there's a way to treat this that they never knew was possible before. It's not just being open and vulnerable, but going through whatever avenue we can give them to get that treatment and living a normal life, still having that mental health issue.

We talked about Speak Up when it came to mental health, quite a few years ago, and it was so short lived, that there wasn't really any help for it that we could see. And now, with this Mental Health First Aid course that we do, that you've been running for the last year-and-a-half, the treatment is there. We're treating this Mental Health First Aid course just like first aid when it comes to physical injury or when you're born with something that's physical.

Stigma, we talk about. We take that away now and say, "You know what, it's no different than going to the doctor when you have cancer, or you've got anything that you have to deal with through life." At certain ages, as men, we've got to go ahead and get tested to make sure we don't have cancer for colon, all these different wonderful fun things we get done. But that's part of life on the physical side.

Now we show up and say, "Hey, mental health is the same way. We've got to treat it just like physical illness or injury." And we can live life healthy, dealing with and treating our mental health. And I think that's something when we did these courses, people came out of it, looking at it saying, "Wait a minute, this isn't just some dark thing that we have to hide and put in the past. It's something we need to bring out and talk to people about to help them." But then we can treat this because it's a condition. It's real. It's a fibre of our being. We are born this way, or something pushed us that way. But it's part of our life.

I think that's the exciting part of bringing mental health out the open is the treatment side of it. Because now we can help people. And because they have this mental health issue doesn't mean they can't live a healthy life, a good life, and be involved and do all the normal things that everybody else is doing, because we can take care of that. I'm so excited about the learnings I have for mental health.

QUENTIN  38:42

There's no discrimination with mental health. It doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care how your status... doesn't care about your sexuality. It doesn't care about your worldview. It doesn't care about your ethnicity. It doesn't care about your social or economical background. It doesn't care, your gender, your religion, it really doesn't. There's no discriminatory pieces to this. It goes after everyone. It's a predator. It's a predator, though, that we not only know more about than ever before, but we're naming it more than we ever have. And we're calling it out. And we're saying, "Enough is enough. You've wreaked havoc long enough. And this is where I draw the line." And we can help people draw the line and go, "That's it."

It's like Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings, when he's being chased by the fire demon, and he's across this bridge and he slams down his staff and he says, "You shall not pass." That's the picture of a resilient person who understands the issues, who has the resources and support and goes, "That's it. You have a corner… you stay in that room. That's all I'm giving you. You do not have access to the rest of my life, the way that you have in the past. I am the one, you are not."

If we can deliver that, however it is that we do, not only will our workplaces transform, but our families, our relationships, our community, and most of all, with ourself... empathy for self, love for self, compassion for self. When we make those things available to us, even with significant mental health issues... that it's not a character defect, that it's not a problem with whatever it is with me, that there's nothing wrong with me... but when I can actually give myself the permission to feel those things and to accept those things, that is then much easier to give out. 

JO  40:39

Wonderful input, thank you. I'd just like to step back for a minute. Quentin, in the union environment, how has people's interest in, and response to, mental health challenges changed over the years you've been doing this work?

QUENTIN  40:57

Trevor and AECOM is a classic example. It's the acknowledgement that there's been this increased level of acceptance that mental health issues are real and common, and they're here to stay. And then it's a subject that's influenced lawmakers, HR departments, policies, lunchrooms. It's not as demonized as it used to be, the ones we shall not speak of, that's gone. That kind of mentality is making a quick exit, and it's increased the resources around us to assist people. Those are probably the top markers.

JO  41:33

You both mentioned stigma... and you really can't talk about mental health without discussing stigma. So, Quentin, I'm really interested to know how stigma manifests in your members' work environments. Nowadays, I know that great progress is being made, but what are you noticing that still has to be dealt with?

QUENTIN  41:57

Let me back it up for a second and just set this as the foundation. The Mental Health Commission of Canada and the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety report that, nationally, an estimated, like I said...  35, and I refer to this early because it's really important... 35 million workdays are lost to mental health conditions amongst our 10 million plus workers. So, it's an estimated cost to Canadian employers of $51 billion [annually]. And like you said, Jo, it's going to just catapult after that. But this is the cost of direct services and loss of productivity.

So, that's the stage it's on. What are the manifestations? Here's the ones that are most prominent, from my experience of what I've seen, is that there's this sort of denial and apathy... that, "I don't have an issue. It's not that big. Like, for years I didn't know I actually had an issue, or issues."

I think language, there's stigmatizing words and ideas and statements and stereotypes and categorizations and interactions based on ignorance and insensitivity. Those are the two things... either you know, and don't care, or you don't know, at all. Not just language, but I just think of fear in general, that we fear what we don't know or what we don't understand.... ones we do not speak of.

I think there's fear of repercussions. Actually, the Conference Board of Canada said that 65% of Canadian workers in the survey said they would not disclose a mental health problem to their employer for fear of repercussions, which could look like job loss or lack of promotion, or keeping an eye on somebody, you know, that little extra because you just in case they snap, or discrimination. A Health Canada survey said that 54% of people reported facing discrimination for their mental problems in the workplace. This is all workplace related.

There's embarrassment and shame. [In the] Health Canada survey, 54% of respondents who met the criteria of anxiety-related disorders or mood-related disorders, or substance dependence, felt embarrassed about their mental health problems.

And then there's a kind of dismissal. I found this astonishing when I came across this, but according to Benefits Canada, there's a survey that was done based on malingering rates in Canada's workplaces, which means you're faking it or exaggerating your issue, your workplace-related health issue. So, the national board for psychological safety in the workplace, they approximate that the malingering rate in Canada workplaces is about 15%, which means, Jo and Trevor, that 85% of the people that are expressing health-related or mental health-related issues are in fact not faking it. It's real. That's significant. But stigma goes, "There's Johnny again, got to pull the slack because he's got an anxiety disorder. Really, what it's code for is he just wants more time off."

JO  44:53

So, before we go into how we're going to actually tackle these stigma-related issues, I just want to chime in with you, Trevor, about stigma within the energy industry. And I may be assuming too much, but it would seem to me that that's likely a male-dominated industry. And men in particular, have a hard time expressing their feelings. And perhaps there's the macho thing going on. Can you tell us about that?

TREVER  45:28

Absolutely. I think that's a key thing. In oil and gas, especially in construction, it is still mainly men dominated. It's changed a lot in the last couple of years... you see a lot more women in this culture, in this industry... but it is still a lot of men. And I think, as men, we don't want to talk about this stuff. And we really single people out, we build even on a whole crew. You'll go into the lunchroom. and, you know, these guys work together, and all of a sudden Johnny's sitting over there, he's by himself, and yet he's a good worker out there. But there's something different about him that everybody has pushed him out. Or he does have anxiety issues, or things like that, that are slowing him down and he can't keep up with a group. And you see those guys singled out.

And it's so important that when that happens for me, especially when I've been in safety, because I have this opportunity now to do that. Those are the people that I warm up to... those are the people that I want to find out their story. I don't want to use that to beat up the other crew. But I want to find out how I can start to deal with this, make it more open. So, everybody sees, you know what, there's nothing wrong with this person. They've got something they're dealing with, but you guys have to accept them for who they are.

QUENTIN  46:35

It's really been helped out in the workplace... guys like Trevor and their companies and HR departments and management. There's lots of government legislation out there that helped minimize it in the sense that there's laws that govern the physical safety of the workplace. Those same laws also govern the mental health safety of each worker in their respective workplaces. Some of that stuff comes with other fines, or it could even include jail time. It's serious. We're not just making this up. There's laws that are helping us work through this issue.

And like Trevor said, the idea that AECOM is actually celebrating it, normalizing it as a way that can help minimize stigma. Stigma is never going to go away, but the onslaught of further education continues to say, "Here's what's really going on. You break the ice behind here and this is the thing."

Part of education for some employers also includes discipline, for those people that continue to be offenders by using these kinds of silos and stigmatizing phrases and sort of nasty behavior. There's discipline in the workplace for that, which is also governed by legislation, that a lot of contracts have 'respect in the workplace' articles, and what that looks like. And if you don't toe the line, this is what you can expect.

So, all those things, I think, do help minimize stigma. But like I said, with mental health issues, I don't think stigma will ever go away. We can get the upper hand on it, which is what AECOM is working towards, which is what I'm working towards, but will never completely defeat it. It'll still be there to some extent because we're people, and it's a people thing, it's not some nebulous force. It's something that's part of who we are, unfortunately.

JO  48:18

We heard from Trudy and Lisa earlier about key components of mentally healthy workplaces. And there were four primary ones. And this is where we bring part two of this episode into alignment with part one, we're going to talk about those four components... leadership, culture, peer support and training. Starting with leadership, Quentin, how does good leadership set the stage for a mentally healthy workplace? 

QUENTIN  48:54

Buy-in at all levels. So, from the owner, to the manager, to the workers themselves, you have to have that buy-in. It starts with the owner. It starts with the CEO. It starts with whoever's at the top. If they own it, it's disseminated much better than if it's not. Proactive HR departments where they make progressive workplace policies, on things like bullying, harassment, or zero-tolerance policies... on behaviors that would stigmatize the workplace and its employees.

There's occupational health and safety committees... them using their platform to make mental health an actual regular agenda item for the promotion, or the education, of mental health.

And it's awareness. Things like celebrating Mental Health Day. There's the education thing like 'mental health first date' as Trevor's attested to a number of times. It's a powerful, powerful thing for education in the workplace. Education on what is bullying. I'm doing actually a course a couple of weeks from now talking about what is bullying and harassment in the workplace, and what it's not. Respect in the workplace is along the same kind of lines... respect for each other. And on site, companies that take toolboxes, they do their toolbox in the morning just to brief everybody. But some of those toolboxes now are starting to add in Mental Health Moments. That's another great place.

And of course, I'm an advocate of proper discipline in the workplace. And what I mean by proper discipline is not just the discipline that's rendered, but it's how they arrive at what discipline we rendered. For instance, I've been advocating into our companies... to our signatories and HR departments... listen, you need to be adding mental health as part of the framing of your investigation. In other words, "Is there a potential mental health issue at play that we need to consider as a factor?"

I can remember dealing with a health care unit... a company... and this person had patterns in absenteeism around Christmas for the last three years. This is a number of years ago, going back a number of years ago. And I asked the HR department, the directors, "Have you ever asked this individual why that is? Because you've made a bunch of assumptions here. And maybe there's something going on that we're not aware of?" They said, "I don't think that's my place." I said, "It is absolutely your place to ask." It's the same thing as if you suspect one of your employees might have an addiction to alcohol, you have to ask the questions… "Do you have a problem? Are you in need of assistance?”... these types of things.

And I just said, “Listen, do you mind if I approach the individual and ask them?" And so, I did. And I said, "Hey, listen, I just came out of a meeting. They're concerned about this timeframe... every year for the last three years you take it off, or you don't bother phoning in, and then you just go to kind of AWOL." I said, "If there's something going on, that would help me explain the situation to them, that we might be able to reconcile this in a different way than just discipline.

And this lady told me that, "Yeah, I'll tell you what it is... I have an anxiety disorder, and it peaks. And it started three years ago, when my aunt and my niece were coming to visit me, and they went through Rogers Pass and got in a head on, and both died instantly on impact. So, every year, the week before Christmas, my brain shuts down, and I can't handle it." I said, "Do you mind if I share this with the HR department, because this is significant, and we can get you help."

Long story short, went in there and said, here's the reason. And what we ended up doing is that we're not going to discipline her, what we're going to do is you're going to give her a hall pass for the next couple of years. “We're going to give you the time off, just let us know if you need it. But we'll just make sure that you're off the schedule, so that you can work through this issue, not worrying about leaving us behind.” And within that two years, we also got her some help dealing with a cognitive behavioral therapist about her anxiety disorder  around it.

You know what, two years later, different lady and learning how to manage it. And now it's like, every so often, every Christmas since then, maybe a day, if that at all, couple days, but a significant difference. That's what I'm talking about. That's very, very helpful.

Or including mental health days as part of the definition of sick days. That's an important piece to put in there. And of course, I think, personally speaking, that the inclusion of personal days, either paid or unpaid, preferably paid into the collective agreement, covering off mental health days, including mental health days, like I said, as definitions of sick days. I think that's huge. I am a big advocate of that.

JO  53:25

Trevor, what are AECOM leaders doing to build more mentally healthy environments for its workers?

TREVER  53:33

I think a big thing with our leaders, for our VP Shawn Jubinville, he has made this such a big mission of his for the last two years to talk about mental health. So, it's coming down from above, to our corporate guys, to our site managers, to our project managers, to our directors. He is such a key part to our industry. And in that same breath, he's serving the people, coming to the same level so that servant leadership is so important, because then people feel like they can come to you.

I've worked for a few different companies in my life, and usually a VP or a director, usually you feel like he's above you, he's so far away that you can't connect, or you can't contact him. When our VP comes to site, or he comes to talk to people, they feel open to talk to him. If they've got an issue, they want something resolved, they'll bring it up to him... he has such a good way to represent our company in that servant way. And it's so easy for me as a site safety, to serve the people here to show them that we want to take care of any mental health issues that come up.

And Quentin talked about harassment, and people that get beat up, and we don't see it. They're getting harassed by words... are getting picked on. We've had quite a few different occasions on site where that came to my attention. And we do have the tools to discipline and deal with that very quickly, even quicker than sometimes an instant, because when it comes to harassment, and somebody is getting pushed to the side, getting bullied, we do not allow that.

And you don't always get to see it right away, so that's where, when you come in as a servant, you come in at the same level as people, you don't come from above, it's easy for somebody to come over and say, "Trevor, this is what's going on, what do we do?"... because they're at a loss... they feel like they're up against the wall. We need to show anybody in our group that it's very important to speak up.

JO  55:16

So, it looks like AECOM is doing a number of really incredible things to foster better mental health. What else could they be doing? You're down in the trenches doing this work every day. What else can they do to help in that move toward minimizing stigma and mental health issues?

TREVER  55:38

I think a big thing is we just need to keep pushing and keep speaking up to make sure that our leadership hears that the sites need this. And the importance of it is the same as safety. It's the same as practices, procedures, all the stuff we deal with already this has to be pushed that same level. And I like what Quentin said, when it comes to benefits, we need to get sick days, we need to get things that support mental health, as well as they understand that this is something we need time to deal with. We need to pull away and take that break to recharge, reset, and get that special treatment. 

QUENTIN  56:10

If I'm an owner of a company and I have a problem with absenteeism, or even presenteeism, it's a lot more cost effective, to be honest, to provide that in a contract, than for people to take two three weeks off and collect either medical EI or short-term disability. The numbers make sense from a fiscal standpoint.

JO  56:32

So, let's move on to culture. In all of the interviews I've done, people have talked passionately about the need for better cultures that nurture empathy and compassion. And those are cultures in families, workplaces, and communities. Quentin, can you describe or tell a story about a corporate culture that's best suited to cultivating people's social and emotional well-being as well as their physical health?

QUENTIN  57:04

You're talking to one of them. AECOM serves as an excellent example of the corporate culture you're referring to. But let me just flip the script here, because I like to do that... I like to offer you a contradictory sort of example that I found rather disturbing. Our local TV station CHBC first broke a story that was covered again in a guest column by an individual named Brennan Phillips for the Kelowna Capital News. And he entitled his column, 'Shouting it out loud: You can't wish away addiction and mental illness.'

For those that are listening out there, we have an ongoing feud between one of our cities here in the Central Okanagan, and the Council, and BC housing. There's something that the mayor said that struck me as it did with this columnist. I've got it in front of me and I just thought I'd read it quickly. It's exactly the opposite of what AECOM and other companies are doing.

This is what he said:

It wasn't anything about the closure of the [Victory Church] shelter. More, it was his words about the money going to the shelter could be better spent, funding a mental institution that was closed more than eight years ago, because it was out of date, and sending people in our community who need help down to the lower mainland.  

This is the quote… 

"Maybe they could get rid of their addictions and their mental illnesses, and make themselves somewhat normal, so they can live a better life," the mayor said during a Council meeting March 16 [2021].   

[That sentiment] − those words − have no place coming from anybody's mouth in 2021, let alone from a government official. Let's get something straight. You don't ‘get rid’ of mental illness. You do not ‘get rid’ of addiction. What you can do, is learn to live with your illness and to manage it − like diabetes, or Parkinson's, or any other disease. People now learn to ‘manage’ their addictions and their mental illnesses, because of our understanding has grown and evolved beyond the thought that we can simply wish it away.  

There is another aspect of these words that I found distasteful, and that is by magically removing someone's mental illness or addiction, that they will be made somewhat normal. What is normal?...     Get rid of their mental illness and make them somewhat normal. That sentiment may have been acceptable 30 or 40 years ago, but it must be left where it belongs − in the past.

And this is the kicker. This is the culture that needs to change and needs to follow the direction, to lead of someone like AECOM, even at this level, in terms of councils of communities.

Not a single counselor called out the mayor on his words. No statement of acknowledgement of his utterances has been made.

When people talk about stigma around mental health, illness, and addiction, they're probably thinking along the lines similar to the mayor's just get rid of the mental illnesses. If those words have come out of the mouth of MP or an MLA, there would be calls to apologize and resign. Words matter.  

…Yet, the world has moved on. The mayor and his Council of people elected to lead the city and are in theory, a reflection of people they serve. A suggestion: Look in the mirror and ask What do I see... and what do I want to see?"

And I just thought, you know what... I read that and I knew we're going to have this podcast, and I knew there was going to be a question probably somewhere around that. I went… this is the antithesis of what AECOM is doing, and the kind of environment it is. And when you say, "What does it look like?"... follow AECOM, do not follow this kind of example, coming out of the interior in one of our cities' councils. It's ridiculous. It's like dehumanizing. Who are you? And how dare you? And I recognize that there are people who, just, that's the way they think. You know what would change, Jo, if and when somebody in his family came down with a serious mental illness... someone close to him.  That would change the game, I bet.

JO  1:00:49

Trevor, Quentin has complimented AECOM's culture a few times during this podcast. Can you tell us a story about where your mentally healthy culture prevented or mitigated an employee's mental health challenge?

TREVER  1:01:09

What I remember is probably three years ago. We had a worker working on site and she was outspoken at times. And other times, she was very quiet. She had anxiety… she was taking some medication to support it. And it's something I knew about… she was pretty open about it. And one day she came into the lunchroom, and I didn't know what was going on. And she really had an outburst, and got very excited, and started to throw a few things around.

And the group that was with her, didn't really know how to respond. But they stayed with her and supported her. And she needed time off. She had gone through a lot of stuff with family, with issues that were going on.  When I came into the picture, and the first thing we did is we got her connected to HR, and she took a leave of absence because of mental health. She didn't realize she could even do that, even though we had talked previous to that.

Once you get connected, and you get part of that culture, and you have a core group that realizes we can deal with people and help them to support them with mental health. And that's all this was this was, a mental health issue she had dealt with her whole life. A lot of different aspects that came into her life that changed this. And today was just that shitty day. That was when the world was crashing down. A lot of situations she would have walked off site… wouldn't get any treatment. And I don't know where she would end up. And we supported her, we got HR involved, we got the benefits connected, I had to make quite a few phone calls.

She's back on site with us again, and I'm so excited for this. Her life has completely turned around at that moment in her life. If we wouldn't have been there to help her, where would have that have turned to... because there was no hope for her that day. We took the time to stop as a group of people, not so much as AECOM, but we gave her the right tools... and it took some work, it didn't just happen right then... and now she's back with us. And it's an exciting story. She still has the issue she deals with, but now it's being treated. She's managing it, and she's enjoying life, going through life normally, but with mental health, it's still there, like it's part of her life. It's exciting to have that opportunity to help people.

This is a statement I say all the time. Everybody either is broken or has dealt with broken people. Once you realize that… that everybody sometimes is hanging on that thread like this lady that we almost lost... it's so important to see that and feel that. Like Quentin says, you look at somebody, you don't even have to ask them, you know they're dealing with something... you need to get in there right away and find a way. What do they need? What can you do for them? And sometimes it's just listening and starting that conversation to get them the help they need.

JO  1:03:40

That's a perfect segue into my next question, the importance of peer support in a mentally healthy workplace. Quentin, what does that look like from your perspective? Is it important for both employers and employees to embrace an emerging culture of compassion that offers authentic peer support?

QUENTIN  1:04:05

The shortest answer I'm going to give you today is, yes. Let me explain why. It's not only important, but it's vital, Jo, for both employers and employees to embrace an emerging culture of compassion that offers authentic peer support. And what does that look like? My perspective? Well, understanding starts with that… open-mindedness, affirmation instead of condemnation, listening… Trevor mentioned that. Being mindful of the language we use because words matter.

Compassion for others that begins with compassion for self is critical. It's key. But probably the biggest key is empathy. in my opinion. If I could sum all of those little words up, in my perspective, into this kind of key concept, I would probably say, to be truly empathetic requires that we're open-minded enough to seek and understand the other. We're mindful of the language that we use, that we affirm instead of condemn, that what they live with is not a weakness or character defect. It's not laziness.

We listen. We ask questions without judgment, respecting the person's feelings, experiences, and values. We lead with curiosity rather than our opinions. Be compassionate about their narrative as much as our own narrative, and compassion for others that begins with compassion for self. That's the starting point, that we remain aware of our own feelings and thoughts when we're listening to others, and we recognize the values, morals, and ethics. They don't need to match with the other person for us to remain supportive of them. And to keep the prejudices and biases that we all have, as people, at bay, and not allow ourselves to speak out of them.

JO  1:05:44

Trevor, how is peer support worked into the AECOM approach to mentally healthy workplaces?

TREVER  1:05:55

Our language, how we talk to people... we need to train people to not come from above. And I talked about servant leadership, that's so important. Because if you have somebody that's dealing with mental health, and you come across from above, there's no way they're going to come talk to you. They already feel like they're downcast or they're in this dark place. Now you come from above, you push them down even further, they won't speak up at all.

The way you support them in the right way, how you come across, how you listen to them is so important. I like what Quentin said, to be non-judgmental. You listen to somebody, and you say, you know, that's really good, I appreciate you telling me that. That's sometimes all you respond. You don't need to tell them a story, you need to listen, and they'll go further. Give them that opportunity to be vulnerable so they get that support from you. Come around them as a group when they get to the point that they've completely crushed down, and they see this group that supports them.

This individual I talked about, it's just amazing how those changes somebody. We need to be better as a group of leadership to do that. They need to be able to see somebody that's ready to stand beside them and not be the one that's pushing them to be normal, because their normal isn't the same as my normal, as Quentin's normal, as your normal, Jo. We're all different. We're all wired differently.

I go back to orientation. I love doing that because they come in, and these guys are like, here's the safety guy, he's going to tell us we need to follow this safety rule. And that's a thrill. And the way I get started is, my name is Trevor Amendt, and I'm the safety guy. And I think each one of us going to bring something to the table… we need to learn from you guys because you've all done this job in this industry for a lot of years. And you need to tell us how we can change to do things better. They look at you like, "You care what I do... you care what I think." And it's important. Everybody wants to feel like they have meaning... like they have purpose. Peer support is just showing everybody that we care.

Mental health is another part of life. And we need to really rally around it to say, "Hey, you know what, we want to care for you. We want to show you that compassion. You need to feel good." And the thing we always say in our company, one of our biggest programs is Culture of Caring. And it's so easy to talk about that and bring it out. When it comes to mental health. We put it in our toolboxes, we talk about it daily, it comes in our safety meetings, it's part of our fresh start. And everybody knows that.

If I'm running stuff, it's going to come out of what I have to say because I get excited about mental health. And people see that passion and they want to be part of that because they know that we all deal with stuff. And we need to surround people. Peer Support is surrounding people being part of a group being part of a family.

JO  1:08:30

The last key component for a mentally healthy workplace, at least for this discussion, is training. Quentin, what's your take on the importance of training?

QUENTIN  1:08:41

It's vital because education is power... so, knowledge is power. Some of the things you probably should key in on in terms of training, you could utilize your toolboxes, like Trevor's just mentioned. You could host weekly Mental Health Moments, whether you post them on the board, or whatever. Pamphlets or posters. Recognizing mental health days, as they come up on an annual basis are important. Occupational Health and Safety meeting agenda items, you can put it on there. You can do lunch and learns. You can direct people to the Mental Health Commission of Canada website, which is a really good place to start for organizations looking for training stuff. There's a ton of material in there.

JO  1:09:21

Trevor, can you share a story about training that went well for you?

TREVER  1:09:26

I hate to keep going back to this, but of course, that Mental Health First Aid... it was so important the way that Quentin comes across. I know he tells the story of his friend saying he needs to get in and train this, but the way he brings his mental health to the group… it changes people.

The key part of the training is the people that provide it. You can have a good program, but if you have the wrong people, you're not going to get that message across. You do the course... you do the paperwork side of it… but then when you get on to the people, again, you deal with each person differently and you give them that opportunity to show what they're good at, or show what they're not good at, and you celebrate the positives and try to help them learn something they need to change or build off of. And its people, training and people is the most important.

If it's training, online stuff, there's some good online courses. But if you don't have something more to give them outside of that, you kind of leave them stop. It's the people that train, it's that interaction that's so important. Any course I've been in... the person that stands at the front or is on the TV screen, and is somebody that's interacting with the group, you get something out of that, and you're excited to go home and tell your wife or go and tell people back at work the next day. And you get more people excited about that training.

JO  1:10:39

Nowadays, in 2021, you can't have a discussion about mental health without talking about COVID. And the impact it's had on families, workplaces, communities, societies, you name it. Quentin, what are you seeing in the workplaces and employees you represent, as far as the impacts of COVID?

QUENTIN  1:11:05

Like I said at the top of the show, I'm far less concerned about the actual COVID virus... and I don't mean that callously because I know a lot of people have lost a lot, including loved ones. So, I don't mean to be emotionally detached from that, but I'm really concerned about the toll the COVID pandemic has taken on our mental health.

Like I said, for some it triggered the decline in their mental health well being, or their mental health, or substance-use crisis that they're currently in. For others it uncovered what was already that lying kind of in the weeds in terms of their mental health, well being or accelerated a mental health or substance-use crisis. And then for others it's just only amplified their pre-existing mental health issues and challenges and deepened their mental health issues or substances.

A Statistics Canada survey just came out recently on COVID-19 and mental health. One in five Canadians adults aged 18 or older screen positive for at least one of three mental health disorders that were assessed. Among them are major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, and post traumatic stress disorder. Depression and anxiety are the two biggest mental health issues in North America, bar none. They're usually comorbid, so they exist and feed in and out of each other... and sometimes substances are part of that, too.

But the Stats Can survey developed in collaboration with the Public Health Agency of Canada found that the major depressive disorder was the most prevalent with 15% of Canadians screening positive. That's a significant number. And these are the ones that were just screened. These are people that we know of, that have made themselves known. Almost as many Canadians and adults, 13%, screened positive for generalized anxiety disorder, which is characterized by symptoms related to excessive or ongoing anxiety and worry that are difficult to control.

And then the PTSD, the disorder that may have developed... and some people have exposure to one or more potentially psychologically traumatic events in their life. But based on the symptoms experienced in the previous month, between September and December of last year, 6% of Canadians screened positive for probable PTSD. The events that trigger that current symptom may have recurred at any point in their life and may not be related to the pandemic. But me, and for some people who experience mental health problems as part of the pandemic... pre-existing symptoms, like I said, may have intensified during the pandemic.

And of those that were screened in this survey, who screen positive for disorders, 68% reported that their mental health had worsened since the start of the pandemic. And the prevalence of positive screens for major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, and probable PTSD were over 3% higher among young adults than older adults. For example, 23% of young adults between ages 18 and 24, screened positive for major depressive disorder compared with 7% of adults aged 65 or older. And overall, one in four women, 24%, screen positive for at least one disorder compared to 17% of men. That's astonishing.

JO  1:14:06

What have you learned through COVID that will help you better serve your members in the future?

QUENTIN  1:14:12

It's real, people... and it doesn't help us to pretend or wish it away. It's not going away. The question becomes, "Where are you at in this?" That's what's helped me. Knowing all that stuff... just knowing we are all part of this. Where do each of us fit? And what is it we can do to support each other? Because that's key.

JO  1:14:39

So, when you talk about businesses that get this right, what is the return on investment for them?

QUENTIN  1:14:47

This is anecdotal at this time, but two years from now, if you were to audit... let's just say you've got a company that's being proactive in doing these things, and creating a healthy mental workplace, as well as physical... and you look at your work safe claims that are connected to, let's say, short-term disability for mental health disorders, I'm going to say it's going to show up in the stats.

Trevor can probably speak to this a little bit better, but I'm positive that when AECOM took the physical well-being of their employees at the workplace, it wasn't too long until the ship turned around and the claims went down. He just said himself, they had a year so far today with no physical injuries, no claims. Where did that come from? That came from not just education. It came from policies. It came from leadership. It came from management that said, "Hey, this is an issue... physical safety of our employees is important, and we're going to get on this thing." And that's the results.

If AECOM continues down the path they are, and other companies, they will be able to say the same thing about their mental health crises that take place, and the help that they've been able to give... catching, like Trevor said, people at the right time... early intervention... God knows where it could go. But I'll have stats, I'll have claims. I'll have a bottom line financially where I can look and test and say, "There it is."

JO  1:16:14

Trevor, what have you learned that will help you better serve your co-workers? And what do you think are the returns on investment for AECOM?

TREVER  1:16:27

We weren't ready for this [COVID] when it hit. We've learned to treat people in a different way. I think the example of going that year without an incident is a huge example of what we can do. But being very open about this, and changing that culture, is such a key. We have a lot more virtual stuff, a lot more team jobs, but what we've done with that is we brought our VPs and our safety directors into safety meetings where they couldn't come before, because they can't get to sites as much.

So, we're seeing a lot more of those people, they're talking to our group. That's a huge impact. And when we started teams, I'll say I was the worst component of it, I struggled with it, I thought, "It's not going to help our people." And I'm already seeing the positive side of this that started to work in a better way. People are, after the meeting, saying...  you know what, that was our VP... that's our safety director... that's our new director that just came on. They get to see the people, even though we can't shake hands we're finding ways to make this a positive interaction.

I'm that old-school guy that doesn't like change, but I'm really seeing positive stuff. One thing I added to my email this year... which I think kind of goes to this... “2021 will be a year of strength, confidence, and opportunities.” And I agree fully with what Quentin is saying... COVID is real. It has affected people, not just in a physical way... the mental health side of this is huge.

In Alberta, we had over 1200 people that died of overdoses last year. It's a record for Alberta. It's a terrible record, and it definitely has to do with COVID. And what's happened with isolation, and where we've let people fall through the cracks or get stuck in the weeds that we can't get them out. It's so important that we find strength and we deal with our people.

Whatever we're changing, we've got to find a way to make sure that people aren't getting left alone or isolated. We've got to make sure we're celebrating them as much as we can. This pandemic, COVID, I agree it's not over, it's not going to be over tomorrow. Once all the vaccines are out, that's not going to end this. This is something we're going to deal with for a long time down the road and must find ways to support people. So, it's so important.

JO  1:18:27

We're talking about COVID. And I'm really interested to know what your personal response has been to the pandemic.

QUENTIN  1:18:37

I'm going to say this knowing full well that it might trigger people, but I don't say this lightheartedly. I say it with all intention and sincerity. COVID, the pandemic, has been the best thing that's dropped in my lap in years. And the reason is, because it stopped me dead in my tracks slowed me down from a pace that was unsustainable... that was eating away at my resilience and allowed me to focus in on what's really important in my life, and why it's important in my life.

And you know what? A big part of that wasn't just the people around me, but it started with me. I've learned to appreciate myself more than I ever have in my past, and it just spills out in my relationships. It has really recharged me. Sure, I have concerns. I know this has not been the same experiences other people have had. Some people have experienced horrible loss and my heart goes out for that. But in terms of me, I have been doing really, really well. Not that some days are all great... there are some bad days for me... but I have been able to increase my resilience. And a lot of that is because it completely altered my daily life and the game that I knew. And I realized that there are some things, when things get back on track, that I'm not going to bother doing because they're not important.

JO  1:20:02

Trevor?

TREVER  1:20:02

Your last statement is all the truth... that's so important. So many things we did that took our time and our energy, that wasted us away and made us a shell... when you look back in the last year, and see different things that have happened, we're going to go ahead without doing them. One thing I've really seen is the time for family. My faith has gotten way stronger in the last year, I don't think I've ever felt as strong when it comes to my faith.

Resiliency... with this hit I didn't know where I belonged, or where I should be. I kind of ran around for a while... I got changed to another site... I worked on two different locations for a while. It was tough. And when you look back now, it's amazing how the blessings have come with just doing the things that are important.

Like you said, Quentin, what's important to us has really changed. We got too busy, we got too overwhelmed, and we didn't have time for ourselves... taking care of what's going on inside of me. And I think that's a key thing with COVID. Now we have time for other people again because we've taken time for ourselves. We haven't been able to do a lot of holidays... going other places... but that opportunity comes and we're going to make sure that family and what's important in life is going to be first before we burn ourselves out so there's nothing left. 

QUENTIN  1:21:17

Yeah, and Trever, I gotta say... this last Christmas has been, with my family and only my family, the best Christmas of my entire life. It was unbelievable. It shifted so many things inside. Now this is it, this is what I want. This is what I need in life. And the rest of this doesn't matter.

JO  1:21:38

Those shifts are so transformative, aren't they?

QUENTIN  1:21:42

So big, Jo, so big.

JO  1:21:44

I've noticed a couple of those for myself, I work at home, so COVID from a work perspective hasn't really been a problem for me. But what I've noticed is that although I haven't responded with increased anxiety or depression to COVID, I realized that I have been feeling numb. And I know how that manifested itself. I spent too much time on Netflix… spent too little time getting out and being as active as I want to be.

I also noticed something else that's huge. And it's about the importance of the work that I'm doing with this podcast. Sometimes I get a little overwhelmed with the amount of work that it involves. But it is such an incredible privilege to connect with people like you, Quentin, and you, Trevor, and to know that other people are going to listen to this and learn from it and be positively impacted by it. And that it will help them become more resilient. It really has confirmed for me that this is my calling at this point in my life. And I'm very, very excited and blessed to be able to do that. 

QUENTIN  1:23:08

I'll run to you every time because you're a gatekeeper, and that's important. It's important for people like Trevor and I to join forces with people like yourself, who are the gatekeepers on a bigger front, and be able to work in tandem... to bring about change. I really appreciate the work that you do, Jo.

JO  1:23:25

Oh, thank you for that. We're on the homestretch now. And to bring this all to a finer point. I have two final questions for both of you. First, if you could say one thing to business leaders about mental health, knowing that it would be taken seriously, what would that be? Trevor?

TREVER  1:23:47

Oh, that's so easy for me. When it comes to mental health, what we stumble at with leadership, we need to serve our people get in front of them and say, "You know what, I'm here to help you with whatever you need." Serving people is number one. And if our leadership can do that to the brand-new green hat worker that showed up on site, and they feel that now they matter... that's how we change that culture.

QUENTIN  1:24:07

Mental health is affecting your workplace and your bottom line. And what I would say is this... if you only capture one thing I'm going to say, as an employer, it would be this...  your employees are people. People are not programs. They're not products. And they should be directed with more than just policies. Investing into the lives of your employees... mental health is an investment into them. It's an investment into their families. It's an investment to their community, and it's an investment into their workplace. It's the best investment you can make. And that will have the greatest impact in terms of a healthy work environment, bar none. 

JO  1:24:50

Second question. If you could say one thing to workers, knowing they would listen and respond appropriately. What would that be? Trevor?

TREVER  1:24:59

Speak up and listen up... that's such a key thing. We have a training in our company, we talk about that with observations and interactions, but we need to speak up and listen up, and you need to do that with authority. Don't ever push anyone away because of potential mental health concerns or issues. Don't make silos, don't push them into a corner. We need to support people and make sure they all feel valued.

JO  1:25:19

Quentin?

QUENTIN  1:25:19

So good, Trevor, you're so good. So, there's a reason I liked this guy when I first met him. You know what, Jo, I would say this... forget the fact that you're working... let's just talk to you as a human being. How are you actually doing? Right here, right now? Where do you find yourself on this mental health continuum that we seem to have...that if you put on one axis, your mental health is at a maximum or it's at a minimum, and on another plane, you have a mental disorder that's a maximum or a minimum... where are you? Where are you at today?

That's the question I would want to ask. And from there, I would say, now in terms of others, keep an open mind. Educate yourself. Know what you're talking about before you open your mouth, Mr. Mayor. Engage yourself, engage the people around you with what you're learning. And when you reach out to support others, just keep in mind, try to remember what you can and cannot expect of yourself, and the support that you can offer. But remember, any support is better than no support.

JO  1:26:27

What a great way to end this conversation. Thanks so much to both of you for participating. You've been so forthcoming, so articulate... the stories you've shared have been just amazing. I'm really excited about how you've brought practical understanding to the policy insights shared earlier by Trudy and Lisa from WorkSafe BC. Both of you keep up the amazing work!

QUENTIN  1:26:57

It's been a pleasure, Jo. And thank you for telling us your story, because that's important to me. It's been a real pleasure.

TREVER  1:27:06

Absolutely. So, for me, as well, Jo. I have really enjoyed this. Being involved with Quentin today and you on this podcast was exciting. I can't wait for another opportunity to do this. And it's great to get the message out there. I will be promoting this website, that you have so much mental health [information], so many different organizations that have done podcasts with you, Jo. And again, Quentin, just the message you have from your story as well... keep it up. You have changed so many lives already just by speaking up. So, keep it going.

QUENTIN  1:27:35

Appreciate that, Trever, and same to you, buddy. 

JO  1:27:38

So, that's it for this episode. You can check out CLAC at c-l-a-c.ca and connect directly with Quentin at q-s-t-e-e-n at CLAC.ca. For AECOM visit a-e-c-o-m.com, or you can reach Trevor directly at t-r-e-v-e-r dot a-m-e-n-d-t at aecom.com.

For complete bios, a list of resources, and a full transcript of this episode, check out the show notes at freshoutlookfoundation.org/podcasts.

A huge shout out again to this episode's sponsors... WorkSafe BC, CLAC and AECOM. Your support is very much appreciated.

And thank you all out there for listening. To receive ongoing updates about future podcasts and virtual summits, follow us on Facebook @FreshOutlookFoundation and Twitter @FreshOutlook. And if you enjoyed the podcast and would like to support the Fresh Outlook Foundation's valuable work, please visit FreshOutlookFoundation.org/donations.

In closing, as Winnie the Pooh says, I'm so lucky to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard. Instead, I'll say be healthy and let's connect again soon.